- [Eleze] Fantastic. Good to see the numbers increasing. Hi everybody, welcome to today's webinar. My name is Eleze. I'm the manager of Provider Market Access as part of the broader team supporting this webinar today. I'd like to acknowledge that I'm coming to you from the land of the Gamilaraay here in beautiful northwest New South Wales and pay my respects to elders past, present, and recognize our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander providers and colleagues joining us today. Our session today will be on, Participated in Subsidized Training and definition of that term. We are really looking forward to seeing your questions through the questions and answer option. Please remember to keep those general in nature and we will do our best to get to them at the end of the presentation. We should have a little bit of time to go through those and we do have people behind the scenes to help support answering those. So without any further ado, I'd like to introduce you to Wojciech, who's our relieving manager of Quality Assurance who will take us through the presentation. Thanks very much.

- [Wojciech] Thank you, Eleze. So as stated, today's Smart and Skilled Provider onboarding webinar is on the module, Participated in Subsidized Training, a guide to this defined term. My name is Wojciech Bagadzinski and I'm the Relieving manager of Quality Assurance in the Training Quality and Regulation directorate of Training Services New South Wales. To start today's session, I would like to acknowledge country by recognizing the ongoing custodians of the lands and waterways where we work and live. I'm on the lands of the Kameygal people in the area next to Botany Bay and I pay my respect to elders past, present and emerging as ongoing teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are tuning into this webinar. And I join my colleagues in striving to ensure that every Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander learner in New South Wales achieves their potential through education. Over the course of this webinar, I will outline the purpose of today's session, what is participated in subsidized training? I'll provide a detailed breakdown of definition, participated in subsidized training, examples of acceptable evidence of participated in subsidized training, examples of unacceptable evidence of participated in subsidized training, when to report UoC outcome code 70, continuing enrollment, when to report UoC outcome code 40, withdrawn, how credit transfer relates to participated in subsidized training, how recognition of prior learning relates to participated in subsidized training, refunds arising from inaccurate training activity data, and who to contact. The purpose of today's session is to assist smart and skilled providers to understand the meaning of participating in subsidized training and to meet their obligations to accurately report training activity data under the smart and skilled contract. The information in this session relates to the current 2023/24 smart and skilled contract. For training activity data submitted under previous smart and skilled contracts, providers should refer to the relevant smart and skilled contract for the relevant definitions and obligations. And if you have any specific questions regarding past requirements, you should contact us for clarification using the contact details provided at the end of this presentation. So what is participated in subsidized training? Under Schedule 1 dictionary and interpretation in the smart and skilled terms and conditions, participated in subsidized training means A, the enrolled student has interacted and participated in the subsidized training with a trainer/assessor and or student/learner management system in a manner that exceeds induction, mere attendance and or accessing training materials. And B, the provider has documented this interaction and participation. The words participate, participation and participating when they have a capital P and are used in conjunction with the words in subsidized training have the corresponding meanings to the above definition throughout the smart and skilled contract. Let's now break down the definition of participating in subsidized training in detail. The first part of the definition is enrolled student, which is defined in Schedule 1 dictionary and interpretation as a student who is eligible to receive subsidized training as determined by either the smart and skilled student eligibility policy or the student, or the school-based apprenticeships and traineeships student eligibility policy, and A, for whom the provider has completed the notification of enrollment process, B, for whom the provider has been issued a commitment ID and C, that has enrolled with the provider in the approved qualification, the subject of the commitment ID. So only an enrolled student can participate in subsidized training. The second part of the definition is that the enrolled student has interacted and participated. Note this is small p for the word participated. These two words interacted and participated and not separately defined in the smart and skilled contract. This means their common dictionary meaning should apply, for example, interaction would be communication or direct involvement with someone or something and generally would be thought of as a two-way process and participation would be the action of taking part in something. So the enrolled student has to be taking part in something that is a two-way process. The third part of the definition is another defined term, subsidized training, which is defined in clause 2 of the smart and skilled terms and conditions and is training and assessment delivered by the provider to enrolled students under any smart and skilled program or the school-based apprenticeships and traineeships program. You'll note that subsidized training incorporates two other defined terms, training and assessment, which are separately defined in Schedule 1 dictionary interpretation within the smart and skilled terms and conditions. Training is the delivery of vocational education training by way of an accredited tertiary education course, which is defined as a vocational education and training program being a structured approach to the development and attainment of one or more competencies for a particular AQF qualification to meet the requirements of training packages or where there is no training package, a sequence of training consisting of one or more modules from an accredited vocational education and training course. Training also means non-accredited local courses developed by registered training organizations or courses developed by industry, enterprise, community education or professional bodies to meet an identify training need which is vocational in intent. Although that's a very long definition, we can see that it describes what training in VET consists of. Note the mention of competencies, I.e. units of competency as they relate to AQF training packages and the reference to modules in accredited courses as well as non-accredited training. The implication for participated in subsidized training is that the interaction and participation is during the delivery of units, modules or subjects. The other defined term under subsidized training is assessment, which is the process of collecting evidence and making judgments on whether competency has been achieved to confirm that an enrolled student can perform to the standard expected in the workplace as specified in a training package or VET accredited course. So it's not just the delivery of training in the units of competency modules or subjects, but participating in subsidized training also encompasses assessment in those units, modules or subjects. Now onto the fourth part of the definition, which is trainer/assessor and or student/learner management system. Neither of these terms are defined in the smart and skilled contract. So the meanings as used in the wider context of vocational education and training would apply. For example, trainer and assessor are defined within the standards for registered training organizations. RTOs 2015. Under the standards trainers are persons who provide training in accordance with clauses 1.13, 1.14, and 1.16 of the standards and assesses are persons who assess a learner's competence in accordance with clauses 1.13 to 1.16 of the standards. Similarly, a student or learner management system, SMS or LMS, has become a common term in vocational education and training and refers to a software application for the administration, documentation, tracking, reporting, automation, and delivery of educational courses, training programs, materials, or learning and development programs. Please note that under record keeping for online delivery requirements under paragraph 17.5 of the operating guidelines, the SMS or LMS must be capable of capturing the details of an enrolled student's engagement and participation in subsidized training. For example, if required, the provider would be able to supply the department with a report of when, what times, and for what units of competency an enrolled student logged into the online delivery platform to undertake online learning, evidence of the work activity or task the enrolled student interacted with or engaged in, and details of completion of all assessments. So returning to our definition of participating in subsidized training, the enrolled student's interaction and participation in subsidized training must involve these, a trainer/assessor and or a student/learner management system. The fifth part of the definition of participating in subsidized training is in a manner that exceeds induction, mere attendance, and or accessing training materials. These words are not separately defined in the smart and skilled contract, so they use their meaning in the context of vocational education and training would apply. For example, induction is usually when a course structure delivery and or content is explained. Attendance is the act of a student being present in a training delivery or assessment situation and having the word mere before this implies it's just the student being present. Accessing training materials may be receiving physical training materials such as a participant handbook, learner guide or other materials in person or via the post, or it may be logging into an online platform to access view or download UoC content or other learning materials. The key word before the above three concepts is exceeds. So this part of the definition requires that the interaction and participation in subsidized training with a trainer or assessor or student learner management system must exceed, I.e. be more than the above three, induction, mere attendance and or accessing training materials. And lastly, the final part of the definition, the provider has documented this interaction and participation. In other words, the provider must collect and maintain records that capture the interaction and participation. Any such records must meet all of the requirements of the operating guidelines and identify the unit of competency, UoC, module or subject and the enrolled student and the date. So what might records that meet the definition of participating in subsidized training look like? On this slide and the next we are going to look at some examples. The table in paragraph 17.8 of the operating guidelines requires that to demonstrate the enrolled student has participated in subsidized training, documented evidence that the enrolled student has interacted and participated in subsidized training in the relevant UoC with a trainer/assessor or student/learner management system in a manner that exceeds induction, mere attendance or accessing training materials must be kept. Please note that there are other record keeping requirements outlined in paragraph 17 of the operating guidelines that must be met by records kept as evidence that an enrollment student has participated in subsidized training. This includes among other things, specific requirements for electronic signatures, online delivery and delivery by correspondence. This being said, providers are free to determine how they will meet these record keeping requirements in a manner that best suits their operations and the applicable mode delivery. The examples we provide on this slide and the next are provided as a guide only, and in each example the record kept would need to clearly identify the enrolled student, the UoC and the date and meet all of the record keeping requirements of the operating guidelines. So let's get into the examples. First example, a workbook of an enrolled student containing relevant learning texts for the UoC with at least one written response to a question in that text by the enrolled student that has been marked or has feedback from a trainer or assessor. Second example, a quiz completed by an enrolled student in face-to-face training that is based on the UoC content delivered, for example, to revise key points learned in the training session that is marked and or contains feedback from a trainer assessor on the enrolled student's answers. Third example, a record or document created by a trainer assessor where the trainer assessor has documented a verbal question asked and answered provided in an interaction with the enrolled student regarding the UoC content in a training session. Fourth example, recording of a training session that shows the enrolled student asking a question and being answered by the trainer or the trainer asking a question and the enrolled student providing an answer regarding the UoC content being delivered. This includes questions asked and answered in the chat function of a lesson delivered via video conferencing technology. Fifth example, an extract from an online learning system that shows an enrolled student's response to an online question asked in the course of the enrolled student's progression through the UoC material. The online system should also capture other details such as date, time, duration of login, and IP address of the computer. Sixth example, record of the enrolled student's completed assessment such as knowledge assessment for the UoC. For example, written answers to written questions that have been marked by the assessor or practical assessment for the UoC. For example, observation report detailing the enrolled student's performance marked by the assessor. Now moving on to examples of unacceptable evidence of participating in subsidized training. On this slide and the next are examples of records that are not sufficient as evidence that an enrolled student participated in subsidized training. The reasons the evidence is not sufficient is because it does not document the enrolled students' interaction and participation in the UoC with a trainer assessor or student management system that exceeds induction, mere attendance or accessing training materials. The examples provided on this slide and the next are not exhaustive. So getting into the examples, firstly, an enrollment form completed by the enrolled student, a UoC session plan, training plan or assessment guide, a UoC commencement declaration signed by the enrolled student and or trainer assessment, emails sent to the enrolled student requesting the enrolled student to log on or commence, attendance sheet signed by the enrolled student, language literacy and numeracy test or some other pre-enrollment quiz completed by the enrolled student, induction checklist or other evidence related to the enrolled student having had the course structure, delivery and or content explained. A record supporting the enrolled student receiving training materials in person via email or in the post. This could be a receipt declaration signed by the enrolled student or it could be an email or a postal record. Completed pre-learning quiz undertaken during induction or prior to the start of training to determine the enrolled students' knowledge of the UoC before training begins. Logging record from an online learning platform that shows the dates and time of the enrolled students' login but does not capture the enrolled students' interaction with or responses to the UoC training material. A video recording of a classroom session or recorded virtual training session that shows the enrolled student was in the classroom or in the virtual session attending passively. Remember, the student has to be interacting. What is demonstrated in the recording needs to exceed mere attendance. And finally the last example, a record from the enrolled student supporting independent research was studied by the enrolled student that does not capture interaction with a trainer assessor or a student learner management system or a UoC workbook. I hope from these examples you have a much clearer sense now of records that do meet the definition and records that do not meet the definition of participating in subsidized training. So when to report UoC outcome code 70 continuing enrollment. Now that we've explored what participated in subsidized training is, let's now turn attention to the training activity data that relates to this defined term. To submit training activity data, providers must use the relevant UoC outcome codes outlined in clause 14.3 of the smart and skilled terms and conditions. In conjunction with the AVITMISS standard definitions of the UoC outcomes. Under smart and skilled, there are two UoC outcome codes that specifically reference participated in subsidized training, 70 and 40. Let's look at 70 first. The UoC outcome code 70 is used for continuing enrollment and should be reported when the enrolled student has participated in subsidized training in the UoC and no other UoC outcome achievement has occurred until a provider has collected and maintains records that meet the definition of participating in subsidized training for a UoC, the UoC outcome code 70 continuing enrollment must not be reported for that enrolled student in relation to that UoC. UoC outcome 85 not yet started is to be used if the student has enrolled in the UoC, but training has not yet commenced. For clarity, commencement under smart and skilled involves the enrolled student participating in subsidized training. The records held must satisfy all the elements of the definition that were covered in the earlier slides and records should look something like the examples provided in the acceptable evidence slides. When this occurs for a UoC, the provider can report that a student has commenced by using the UoC outcome code 70 continuing enrollment. If the records did not meet the definition, the UoC outcome code 85 not yet started should be used. Another note where training is yet to start or be completed for a UoC, the proposed dates must be entered, the dates entered must then be updated to the actual dates once the actual start date or end date is known if they differ from the proposed dates. One potential impact on when a provider might consider reporting the UoC outcome 70 continuing enrollment is the concern that a commitment ID may expire. This concern is not a valid reason to submit the UoC outcome code 70 continuing enrollment without holding the required records that the enrollment student participated in subsidized training. Providers have other options to avoid commitment ID expiry. The first option is to set a realistic plan start date for the enrolled student initially and take all steps to commence the enrolled student in the approved qualification on the planned start date. And by commence we mean collect evidence that the student participated in subsidized training. The second option is if the actual start date is delayed, the provider can modify the plan start date in STS Online to a date up to four weeks from the current plan start date. That reflects when the enrolled student is expected to commence. This can only be done once and the new plan start date must be within the same activity period in which the commitment ID was created. If the new plan start date falls within the following activity period, the commitment ID must be canceled and a new commitment ID obtained. The third option is to explore whether an extension to the commitment ID expiry date is possible. This is in exceptional circumstances and would usually only apply where the enrolled student has actually participated in subsidized training. And this has been documented by the provider. However, the provider is experiencing an issue or delay in reporting the training activity data. Providers should contact customer service and operations to discuss the particulars and what options may be available. The contact details are provided at the end of this presentation. When to report UoC outcome code 40 withdrawn. The other UoC outcome code that specifically references participated in subsidized training is 40 withdrawn. 40 withdrawn is used where an enrolled student has participated in subsidized training for the UoC and has withdrawn before completing all training and assessment as specified in the relevant training package. The provider must ensure the required records are collected and maintained to support the withdrawal of the enrolled student and to support that the enrolled student has participated in subsidized training for the relevant UoC before this UoC outcome code is submitted. If the required records have been not been collected and maintained, the UoC outcome code 85 not yet started must be reported by the provider for the UoC. So we can see that in relation to participating in subsidized training the requirements for UoC outcome 70 and 40 are the same. How Credit Transfer relates to participating in subsidized training. On this slide and the next we wanted to clarify some points of confusion regarding the relationship of two other UoC outcome codes to participated in subsidized training. The first is 60 credit transfer. To report a UoC as credit transfer, the provider must collect and maintain records to support the credit transfer, such as a testament or statement of attainment showing the UoC was previously completed and satisfies all requirements of the current UoC. Where the provider holds the required records the provider should submit the UoC outcome code 60 credit transfer for the UoC. Please note the start and end date should reflect the date of granting credit transfer. The records that support a credit transfer such as a testimonial statement of attainment are not acceptable as records that an enrolled student has participated in subsidized training. Providers must not submit the UoC outcome code 70 continuing enrollment for a UoC where credit transfer is to be granted or has been granted. How Recognition of Prior Learning relates to participating in subsidized training. The other UoC outcome code we wanted to clarify in relation to participating in subsidized training is 51, recognition of prior learning granted. UoC outcome code 51 recognition of prior learning granted is used where the enrolled student has successfully undertaken a recognition process to satisfy all the requirements of the unit of competency as specified in the relevant training package. Where a student has nominated that they want to undertake a recognition of prior learning process for UoC. At the time of enrollment, the provider should determine if the student is suitable. That is that the student has the relevant skills and experience. Once it is determined that RPL is suitable for a UoC, the provider will start a process of collecting evidence and the undertaking assessment where the assessment for the UoC meets the definition of participating in subsidized training. In other words, the records collected and used for the RPL assessment specifically address the unit content and the mapping is clear. The provider may submit the UoC outcome code 70, continuing enrollment for the UoC. The reason we point out that the unit content being addressed must be evident in the records is that very often when dealing with evidence submitted for RPL assessment, the evidence being considered is not mapped to the unit of competency and therefore the link between the evidence and the UoC is unclear. Where this is the case, the records would not support the UoC outcome code 70 continuing enrollment and that outcome should not be reported. Where the definition of participating in subsidized training has not been met by the records collected through the recognition of prior learning process. The UoC outcome code 85 not yet started, should be submitted for the UoC. Once the recognition of process has been successfully completed to satisfy all the requirements of the UoC, and the provider has collected and maintains records that support the granting of recognition of prior learning for the UoC, the provider should submit the UoC outcome code 51 recognition of prior learning granted for the UoC. I hope it's clear from this that the records collected during the recognition of prior learning process will only in some instances meet the definition of participating in subsidized training and therefore warrant the submission of the UoC outcome code 70 continuing enrollment. If a provider is unsure whether the records the provider holds would meet the definition, the provider should err on the side of caution and report the UoC outcome code 85 not yet started or contact the department for advice. Refunds arising from inaccurate Training Activity Data. The UoC outcome code 40 withdrawn 50 recognition of prior learning granted 60 credit transfer and 70 continuing enrollment can each trigger or contribute to a UoC outcome achievement stage and may result in payment of subsidies and loadings if applicable. Please refer to the table at clause 14.3 of smart and skilled terms and conditions for detailed information on the UoC outcome codes and UoC outcome achievement descriptions, as well as clause 17 in the smart and skilled terms and conditions for detailed information on subsidies and loadings. Should a provider become aware that it has reported training activity data that triggered a UoC outcome achievement stage and corresponding payment installment under the smart and skilled contract, but the provider does not hold the required records such as those that support participating in subsidized training in for outcomes 40 and 70, the provider has not complied with the smart and skilled contract and the training activity data is inaccurate. The provider must immediately notify the department of the non-compliance and make arrangements to repay the monies the provider is not entitled to. Information on who to contact is provided in the next slide. Who to contact. For inquiries regarding evidence requirements under the smart and skilled contract, please email Quality Assurance at TS.Monitoring@det.nsw.edu.au For inquiries regarding eReporting, please contact Customer Service and Operations on 1300 772 104 or at TSNSWCust.Service@det.nsw.edu.au To report a payment that was received due to inaccurate training activity data, please email Reconciliation and Appeals on TSNSW.Reconciliation@det.nsw.edu.au And that brings us to the end of the presentation.

- [Eleze] Thank you very much, Wojciech. I know that there's been a lot of questions generated, so what I'd like to do is just to reiterate that we do have further support options, some of which were mentioned in the presentation. So your first point of contact is your Strategic Relationship Manager. In this case it can be a Regional Provider Support Manager who is also appointed one in each region. So it could be one or the same or separate people there, but you would've been notified by now who your SRMs or RPMs are. Also, any technical issues or concerns, please contact our Customer Service and Operations team. And of course our regional services offices are also available for any apprenticeship and traineeship questions that you might have. Next week's session is on managing trainees and apprentices. So for those that have that program in your stream, I'm sure you'd be interested in joining us for that. All right, so today because of the nature of the questions that we have, we'll see how we can go answering the questions that are in the Q&A section. If we can't get there, and I know it's difficult to often, particularly if we don't have contact details to be able to respond to you. So if your question remains unanswered, please reach out to the contacts that are on the screen to support you. But we will have a go now and see if our panel can answer the questions that we have online. The first question from anonymous here, how can we provide evidence of video recorded sessions of the students to the department if asked and if we have multiple students in one class, dunno if anyone would like to go with that. Thanks.

- I can go with that one. Yeah, I think this, there's maybe two points to this. So in relation to the actual submission of an electronic file, like a recorded session, electronic files can be, if we were requesting evidence, we would provide the avenue by which we wanted the evidence to be submitted. If it was too large to attach to an email, we have the option of either asking you to put it on a USB and submit it to us in that fashion, or we may be able to set up a secure link for you to upload it. So if the concern is more to do with the size of the file and that it may not be able to be attached to an email that may be, that would address one part of it. If the concern is more to do with the fact that there's multiple students within the classroom and there's a question around, you know, which one are we talking about that might require some additional information to be submitted with the recording. So you know, we might have to describe the students and which student you are submitting the evidence in relation to so that you could say that, you know, you could see that student A was asked the question and answered the question that was there and participation in subsidized training in the context of that UoC training delivery. And so your additional information that you'd provided with the recording would help us understand which student in particular is the recording relates to in relation to their participation in subsidized training. So I'm hoping that answers the question.

- [Eleze] Thank you. Thanks, Wojciech. This next one might be a quick one too for yourself. Can a self marking quiz completed as pre-work from an LMS be counted as participating?

- [Wojciech] I think the key thing here is around pre-work. So one of the points we made with a lot of the examples that we provided that were not sufficient as to meet the evidence was that, you know, quizzes that are undertaken before training begins. The key bit is there is before training begins. So you know, for participation in subsidized training, it has to be during the course of once we're into the actual delivery of the UoC. So anything that's done as pre-work is not the actual delivery of the UoC. So we'd be looking more for a quiz that's being undertaken once some actual UoC content has been delivered and then you are quizzing more to revise that the information that's been delivered has been understood.

- [Eleze] Great, thank you. This next one's from Jade, but it looks like it could be on the back of another question it started by, but then the start date of commencement may be before the CID start date. Are we waiting for the assessment to be marked before we can report the 70? The CID may need to be canceled and recreated from the new date. However, when we receive evidence of marked assessment to change the outcome to 70, that start date would be in the past, would that not count as backdating and not be valid? I'm hoping that makes sense to you.

- [Wojciech] I think it does. I think it does. I think what we're saying here is that what we're saying is that whilst your start date insofar as you've, let's say you've, you know, Wednesday the 26th of July today and you are doing your first training session with the student today. And so therefore in your mind, that's the start date, that's the commencement date for the learning. Now if you don't actually document participation in subsidized training in that first session and all you've got is the fact that the student has attended, for example, from our perspective in the context of the smart and skilled contract that student hasn't actually commenced. So, commencement is when participation in subsidized training has been documented. So you would report the 70 once that threshold has been met and you've documented the participation in subsidized training and that also indicates when from the smart and skilled standpoint, the student has actually commenced. So until that that documentary evidence exists from the smart and skilled contract perspective, the student has not commenced, I'm hoping that then avoids the backdating issue that was sort of explored in that question.

- [Eleze] Great, thank you. This one is from anonymous. Why is there no payment made to the RTO admin fee to cover the expenses incurred by the RTO after the student has been enrolled, granted access to course, and monitoring evidence retained to engage the student commencing training and assessment. Obviously there's needs to pay staff and overheads and they can only claim on commencement of the student in training and assessment.

- [Wojciech] Okay, that one I think we might need to take on notice because I think that's more of a policy question.

- [Andrew] Yeah, sure, sure. Wojciech, I might be able to just touch on it. Look, there's a lot to that answer. So through smart and skilled, we do in fact try and recognize the cashflow requirements for providers as in many cases small businesses. So our payment milestones try and reflect that through a distribution of payment milestones over the lifecycle of the training. So we encourage, certainly once that commitment ID has been established for commencement of training to occur as soon as possible. So that's a good thing for us, the department, to understand our commitments. It's a good thing for providers because once that commencement occurs, the submission of training activity data with a justified unit of competency outcome code that you know relates to participation in subsidized training means that we can make payment and we make the payment in a relevant installment which picks up any fee and the cost of training as we schedule in relation to how we define smart and skilled prices and fees to try and give the provider as much support and cash flow as as soon as we we possibly can. Thanks, Eleze.

- Thank you. Thanks Andrew. Wojciech, this might be back for you as well. This is in relation to credit transfer. Sometimes it is not known until near the end, for example, first aid training, I think you did advice on credit transfer.

- [Wojciech] Yeah, so I mean I guess obviously we encourage providers to, you know, do everything they can to try to identify a credit transfer as early in the process as possible. You know, during the enrollment time is best, but if the credit transfer evidence is not gathered until later or for whatever reason, it wasn't identified early in the piece, I guess the point in relation to participative subsidized training is that that particular unit we would expect, hmm, hang on. I was just gonna say, I mean obviously if the credit transfer is identified early, well then, you know, there's no participation in subsidized training. If it's not being identified and therefore the student, you know, is beginning is being essentially lined up for training to be delivered to them and they're actually doing the unit and it and is being delivered. I guess if it was then to show up later, you know, that would be I guess when the training activity data ends up being inaccurate. I mean, so it sort of, it may not end up being avoidable, but we just, all we can do is really strongly encourage providers to try to identify those credit transfers as early as possible and also encouraging the student to access the USI to be able to verify if they've got it already or not 'cause at least if that's done, you've got clarity as to whether or not it's the fact that the credit transfer is there, it is just a matter of getting the evidence, in which case we would strongly encourage you not to deliver the unit, but just simply report the 85 until that evidence is captured. If it's really a case where the student didn't declare that they'd done it and you know, it was in no way identified, well then I guess you could call an honest mistake in the context of, you know, having started delivering it and then it it showed up that it was actually there.

- Thank you. This one is similar but not the same. How are RTOs to report on what date a student commenced and across the LM, sorry, and access the LMS if they are undertaking RPL and don't require access to the LMS? There's lots of RTOs that provide hard copy materials that live outside of the LMS. So I guess it's around that RPL component.

- So in relation to RPL. Okay, how's the student expected to report to what they a student has commenced and access if they are doing RPL? Well, as I mentioned in the bit on RPL, it's really going to depend on whether or not the evidence that's gathered meets the threshold of participating in subsidized training and what, as I stressed in the slide when we looked at it there, very often the evidence doesn't and because, you know, we get RPO evidence that is quite broad in nature, I guess you could say. And consequently, you know, the relationship between the evidence and the actual specific requirements within the UoC is not that clearly mapped and not visible. So it might well be that you just have to report and you just have to continue to report 85 until that threshold is met and you may not be reporting a commencement against that RPL until later in the piece. And that's simply, you know, you might simply end up completing the RPL process and then you report the 51. So there may not be a 70 before the 51, it might be just 85 the whole time.

- Thank you. Thanks, Wojciech. Question here around RTOs and payment for RPL. Andrew, are you able to take us through that a little bit?

- [Andrew] Possibly, Eleze, what was the question?

- So just the question here is, why don't RTOs get paid for RPL when a great deal of work goes into the assessment of a student, but I do believe RTOs are paid even though it may be a reduced rate.

- Yes, that's right. So we do pay for unit competency outcome codes that represent RPL, you know, it's a historical policy decision regarding the amount we do pay. So we're constantly reviewing the levers and settings in smart and skilled to make sure we represent what's required correctly and that includes reviewing prices for qualifications and fees and also the way in which we, you know, the way in which that flows on in terms of arrangements. But yeah, current contractual arrangement at the moment indicate that we do pay for RPL, albeit at a reduced percentage than other unit of competency outcome codes. Yeah, so that's where we stand at this particular point in time on that.

- Thank you, Andrew. This next one might be for you as well or you'd like to take it on notice. What is the process for getting an accredited course added to the Smart and Skilled List?

- Okay, so first and foremost, scope of registration for any registered training organization needs to reflect the qualification, accredited course skillset or in fact standalone units. So I'd refer you to the smart and skills delivery and management policy. So from time to time we review an approved qualification activity schedule for providers and that happens at certain times in the year. And the smart and skills delivery and management policy outlines how that review is undertaken and applications can be made for consideration around courses, qualifications and associated financial caps. So we need to make those considerations at scheduled times during the year. There's not necessarily a guarantee that that can be done, but we certainly review it, you know, regularly.

- Thank you. Thanks very much. Okay, this one might be back to Wojciech, I'm not sure, can we use unit code 30 competency not achieved fail? If yes, is there a specific minimum number of attempts a student must make before an RTO deem it 30 competency not achieved or fail? Is that something you can answer or we'll take it?

- I might be able to answer part of it. So the bit that I'll take on is in relation to can the outcome be used? The outcome is an acceptable outcome of smart and skilled? So that first part of the question I can confirm is yes, but in relation to the second part, Linna may be actually typing something in, so I might leave it for her to answer.

- Thank you.

- [Linna] Sorry. So if a organization has a policy where they require, will give an opportunity, more than one opportunity, for the student to undertake the unit of competency again, the final outcome, once they've exhausted all those opportunities, should be the one that is reported.

- Thank you. Our next question here from Nicole, how long can we leave UoC status at 85 without having a commitment ID expire?

- Okay, so as this was covered in part in the last webinar as I understand it, which was on eReporting, so commitment ID expiry, it depends on whether or not the learner is an apprentice or trainee or whether they're non apprentice or trainee. So for apprentices and trainees it's 10 weeks and for non apprentice and trainees it's six weeks. So that's the period of time before an commitment ID will expire. And as mentioned that if the expected start date or the planned start date, it doesn't look like it's actually going to occur. And as a result, you know, we have a start date that is gonna happen a little bit further in the future, up to four weeks, the planned start that can be adjusted in STS online to up to four weeks further into the future, which obviously then sets off, you know, extends that expiry date by bit of time. And then, you know, realistically speaking, if necessary a new commitment ID could be attained for the student if required and as was stated in the slide, there may be some additional options and it would be best to contact the Customer Service and Operations team to discuss, but usually those other options would only really be applicable if the student has actually participated in subsidized training and that has actually been documented by the provider, but for some reason, a, you know, delay in reporting is being experienced.

- Thanks, Wojciech. Andrew, I'm not sure if this is for yourself. Question from Tony. How can we submit an application to change the payment cycle? For example, we deliver quals that have 12 to 13 units and can manage three payments, but for quals not involving apprenticeships that have 25 or more units that often can take in excess of 24 months. So yeah, I'm just wondering is there anything in that space we can answer?

- Yeah, so it's a good question and, look, it's tied up with the intricacies of, you know, at the end of the day our methodology for making payments under smart and skilled and there are all those scenarios that, you know, we need to think about. Essentially, I mean we're always happy to receive information and comment, but in terms of what the specifications are in the contract, you can see for different qualification and program types that there are certain milestones that do apply and they're to do with I guess average lengths of qualifications, average number of units of competency. And we try and balance and smooth our payment milestones over the average lifecycle of those particular courses. But like I said, more than happy to consider any impacts on providers and you know we do review smart and skilled and the settings and the policies, you know. I guess we have certainly heard those sort of comments before. It's about us trying to, I guess, maximize coverage and essentially smooth the trend to make sure we cover the majority of scenarios to give the best lifecycle of payment, which, you know, links into departments, budgetary considerations and also very importantly tries to cover cashflow requirements of the small business as well.

- Thank you. Thanks very much. There's a little bit of commentary there. I might leave that and we might take that on notice from Jade. There's a bit of a complexity there in the question. Question from Wayne. Some students undertake two qualifications at once and may complete a UoC in one course which may also be used with another qual. How is this handled?

- I mean, I think if we're talking about in relation to participating in subsidized training, the delivery and the capturing of the records to support the participated in subsidized training being met would be in, you know, as it occurs in the particular unit that is being delivered for the one qual and then that would be given as a credit transfer for the other qual.

- Fantastic, thank you. Sorry, I'm just trying to go through. From anonymous, for RPL, should we be reporting the commencement and completion date as the date the RPL is granted?

- So should reporting commencement and completion date as the date of the RPL is granted? It depends realistically on, I think this would, there would also be that whole thing of what we call indicative start and end dates and then actual. So at the beginning there would be sort of what you indicate or you understand the start date and end date to be. And then it will depend on what occurred in terms of the data that was reported once the RPL was being undertaken. So if there was evidence that met the threshold of participating in subsidized training that was captured at a certain point in time and you reported a 70, that would be reflected as the start date of the RPL. And then the end date would be when it's granted and it becomes a 51. Whereas if throughout the whole process it was an 85 the whole time and then the RPL is granted, it's not really, yeah, rather than say give the wrong information, look, my inclination is to say that it should be, it may be acceptable as being on the same date, but I'll take that one on notice and I'll come back with a definitive answer on that one.

- Thank you. Thanks very much for that. Sorry, I'll just make a note of that in the notes. Clarification regarding online quizzes. If a student completes an online quiz that is auto marked as part of their learning before they start their assessment, can completion of the quiz be acceptable evidence of participation and therefore the start date of training for that UAC?

- I've lost which one, from Kerry was it?

- No, it's an anonymous.

- Anonymous, okay. Sorry. Hang on.

- You're all right. 12:44. If you're looking for the question.

- Yeah, I am sorry.

- You're all right.

- Anonymous. Okay. Can I clarify the situation, online quizzes? Okay. If a student completes an online quiz that is auto marked as part of their learning before they start their assessment, can completion of the quiz be acceptable? Evidence and participation is therefore start of training in that UoC. So I'm assuming when we're saying auto marked, that means that the learner management system or student management system is providing the responses in terms of, you know, whether or not the quiz response is correct or incorrect, that is that interaction with the learner management system or the student management system. So in that case, the feedback from the learner management system or student management system of saying this is correct or that's incorrect during that quiz is the same as whether that's being done with a trainer or assessor. So, the answer is yes, that does meet the threshold of participating in subsidized training and, you know, during the course of moving their way through a UoC content and they're doing this particular quiz as part of their working their way through the UoC content and it's basically a testing of knowledge kind of quiz, not summative assessment, but formative assessment we could say then yes, that means that that would be participated in subsidized training. - Thank you. Okay. I think there's only a couple more there, but I will leave that. I know that we have a few to get back to. So really appreciate everyone's input and patience as we take you through all the Q&As. Thanks again to Wojciech and to the team behind the scenes supporting the webinars. We really look forward to, we're sending out a survey to all providers so that we can get feedback from you on the webinars, but also to look for opportunities for future webinars that will continue the journey in the education side of it. So look out for that. That should come out soon, as well, it'll come out in the next Update as well. So next week's session is management of apprenticeships and traineeships, and we look forward to bringing that to you on Wednesday at 12 o'clock. So thanks again, everybody, and enjoy the rest of your afternoon. Bye for now.